Frank Schwabe: Putin Should Remember Duterte’s Example

• 26.01.2026, 11:23

The Russian dictator could end up on trial in The Hague.

Is a trial against Putin possible? Is Germany ready for a new, more active role in Europe? What else can Berlin do for Ukraine? The website Charter97.org discussed these issues with Frank Schwabe, Chairman of the Social Democratic Group in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) and a German MP.

— You have years of experience of holding prominent positions at PACE. How to ensure viability of such organizations as PACE in this day and age when there is a dictator who disregards rules and international conventions and wages the full-scale aggression against Ukraine?

— Russia's full-scale war against Ukraine is a horrific development in Europe. The procedures are very clear. The European Court of Human Rights has issued clear rulings against Russia. In the end, Russia was quickly excluded, and we are doing everything we can to support Ukraine.

The situation of the Council of Europe is worsening because, in the shadow of this war, some other countries believe they can now ignore the organization's values and rules. There is often debate within the Council of Europe about whether it is a weak or strong organization. Ultimately, however, it is not about the organization itself– it is the member states that are disregarding the rules and values. The question is how we deal with these countries.

The case of Russia was clear-cut. The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) unanimously decided to exclude Russia from the organization. But some other countries such as Azerbaijan and Georgia are also taking a completely wrong path. Member states of the organization are trying to attack the convention system when it suits them, for example on migration issues. Unfortunately, this also weakens the organization's voice vis-à-vis Russia and the Russian dictator.

Nevertheless, now more than ever, we should reflect on our roots and hold on to our values. It is in the best interests of the people of Europe to be able to rely on this system of conventions in international debates. Some people are not even aware that it exists, but it helps everyone every day.

— A while ago, you called for a "targeted security strategy" to better protect parliamentarians and democratic institutions from hybrid Russian interference here in Germany. How does the situation look today?

— We are certainly in a better position today than we were a few years ago. But we are not yet where we should be. It was one of the key issues in the negotiations on the new coalition agreement in Germany. For example, we are preparing a law against transnational repression. Two or three years ago, no one really knew what transnational repression meant. Today, we understand much better that authoritarian regimes not only target the opposition at home, but also try to undermine it abroad. It is in our own interest to better protect these people here, because they are opposing countries that act against our values. We must ensure that they cannot be attacked here, on our territory.

— If a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine is reached, how to ensure that Russian war crimes in Ukraine are not forgotten?

— At the Council of Europe, we have done a great deal to document such war crimes. We have set up a special tribunal for the crime of aggression. We support the International Criminal Court, which is investigating Putin and others. However, certainly, this will not be a topic of peace negotiations, as Putin will not agree to an investigation against himself. But we have various systems in place to preserve evidence of war crimes and have set up a registry where people can submit information and evidence about the values destroyed by Russia. If a peace treaty makes it impossible to bring Putin and others directly to justice, we need an institution to publish this information. That would be my suggestion. We should organize everything we collect in a memorial—a building that can be entered physically and virtually to understand what happened. There should also be an archive with detailed evidence. Ultimately, there is still hope that, even if it is not possible now, some of those responsible will one day be held accountable.

History teaches us that some things are considered impossible, but in the end they happen. For example, former Indonesian President Rodrigo Duterte is now facing the International Criminal Court. So there is still hope that Putin can be held accountable for his crimes. We must gather all the evidence necessary to prepare for a possible court date.

— So, the goal is to collect and preserve the information about the war crimes, committed by Russians in Ukraine?

— Yes. And we should find a way to inform the public comprehensively. We should give everyone the opportunity to visit the documentation center and obtain all the necessary information. Putin cannot prevent that.

— After changes in the American administration a year ago, Germany has become the number one outside supporter of Ukraine in its fight against Russia. Some say that Germany should be more cautious and avoid the escalation. Some say, on the other hand, that Germany should be more active and deliver more weapons, for example, to Ukraine. What is your position?

— I hear some of these things in conversations with my Ukrainian partners. Germany is Europe's largest economy, so we bear a great responsibility. Some of the debate about individual weapons systems went too far. Germany will continue to provide a large part of the support. In this respect, there is continuity between the previous and current governments. We will continue to act in a measured manner, supporting Ukraine but not becoming a party to the war. We don't know what's going on in Putin's mind, but we shouldn't give him any pretext.

We know that support for Ukraine would not be possible without a substantial contribution from Germany. German public support for Ukraine remains stable. Although there is opposition from right-wing extremists and a populist party, they represent only a minority. Like other NATO partners, we are discussing how a ceasefire can be secured. Ensuring long-term financial support for Ukraine, including through the use of frozen Russian assets, is key.

These are all difficult debates. But the Chancellor and the government majority have made their intentions clear. Putin knows that we will continue to support Ukraine if he prolongs the war. He must be aware of the high price and the increasing strain on the Russian economy. We support any peace treaty that Ukraine concludes freely and independently. If not, Germany will continue to provide military support. We in Europe are in a position to mobilize the necessary financial resources to support Ukraine. Germany will continue to play a leading role in this.

— Will Putin prolong the war?

— No one can know that. Only he himself. Very little can be predicted in international politics. We did not see the Arab Spring coming, nor did we see its end. We also did not see the refugee situation coming, in which millions of people from Syria came to Europe. Although the world has seen Russia's aggression since 2014, most of my Ukrainian friends did not expect this comprehensive attack on Kyiv either. It seems that Putin is pursuing some kind of mission and is, in a sense, obsessed and acting irrationally. Unfortunately, we must continue to assume that he still has the goal of taking Kiev. And possibly other capitals, for example in the Baltic states.

However, all data show that Russia's economy has shifted toward a war economy. This has increasing consequences for the country: a war economy may even lead to economic growth in the short term, but it does not allow for innovation and sustainable economic development. The catastrophic effects on the Russian economy and society are becoming impossible to ignore.

Russia's economy is suffering, partly as a result of international sanctions. That is why we are on the right track. Putin will only understand how senseless this war is for Russia if the situation in Russia continues to deteriorate. This is bitter for the Russian people, but unfortunately necessary as long as they do not get rid of their dictator.

— Looking ahead, what is Germany's long-term role in European security architecture?

— Germany understands that we have to play a new role. The lesson learned from World War II, in which we committed atrocities in Europe, Ukraine, and Russia, was to be cautious and not to use our economic power too much politically and militarily, even if we were capable of doing so. During the Cold War, our defense budget was higher in percentage terms than it is today, and we were quite strong militarily. Then, however, we thought, “We have peace. We can focus on other things.” After 1990, spending declined. Now it is rising rapidly.

We understand that Europe must play a strong role of its own in light of developments in the United States. We must be strong. Looking at the figures, Germany's share of Europe's financing is usually between 20 and 25 percent. If we want to be strong as Europe, this is not possible without Germany. Having learned from history, we must fight for European unity. Only in this way can we prevent another war in Europe.

Putin wants to destroy the European Union. Unfortunately, so does Mr Trump. We in Europe, on the other hand, know that we must invest in defense. The alternative to a functioning European Union is war. We must see this clearly. Even if we cannot count on the United States, we have the economic strength to organize our own destiny in Europe. With the political will, we can also implement this.

However, we must not define our own European strength solely in military terms. The civilian dimension is also necessary. This means more funds for humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, however, these funds are declining. We should not drastically increase defense spending while at the same time spending too little on humanitarian aid and international development cooperation. Ultimately, protection against a crisis does not consist solely of weapons. Weapons are necessary, but a civilian component is also required.