Andrei Sannikov: Lukashenka Does Not Feel Safe
- 20.10.2022, 15:22
The dictator lacks vassals he can count upon.
Why is it important to seek the recognition of all prisoners of the regime as political prisoners? Will Putin and Lukashenka get to the Hague? What is the scenario of changes in Belarus?
Andrei Sannikov, the leader of the European Belarus Сivil Сampaign, told about this in an interview with Radio Racja.
— You had to leave Belarus. Could you imagine being out of the country for so many years?
— No, I did not think that I would leave for so many years. I did not think that Lukashenka would be in power for so long. However, this means nothing, this is just a fact. It may sometimes affect the mood, but not the activity. I am engaged in the activities I was engaged in previously. I left and continued to do it here because it was impossible to do it in Belarus.
— What have you been doing all this time, 11 years already, right?
— Less, I left in 2012 when there was a threat to my life. What am I doing? I lead a foundation. I am one of the coordinators of the European Belarus campaign. You know, our leaders who stayed in Minsk and took an active part in the protests are now in prisons. I am talking about Yauhen Afnahel, Maksim Viniarski, Palina Sharenda-Panasiuk, they are torturing her, Andrei Voinich and others, many of them.
We continue to do what needs to be done. I have always been in charge of international affairs and continue to do this: I am doing publications, meeting people, and participating in conferences.
— What is the European Belarus doing to help Palina Sharenda-Panasiuk? Because they can torture her to death, I think.
— Yes, she spent more than 80 days in a punishment cell, in this ShIZO. I won't talk about what we're doing now. I would just like to encourage you to write letters to Palina. Also write letters, if I am not mistaken, to Kurlovich, the head of the colony in Zarechcha. Believe me, I am sensitive about Palina mostly because I know that she is a person of principle...
— She is very courageous…
— ... so courageous. She knew that her sentence would be extended, but she did not deviate even a bit from her principles. By the way, I saw Andrei a week ago, we support her family. They are a wonderful couple in fact. They've been with us for a long time, I mean with the European Belarus.
I believe that they are doing such things with Palina because Lukashenka seeks revenge for the fact that she appeared on TV during the 2019 parliamentary campaign. She was the only one who called Lukashenka a dictator.
Lukashenka is a dark-minded person, he is not a politician or a leader, but a heartless beast and a criminal. Let me remind you that we have not 1,300 political prisoners, but more than 4,000.
— Human rights activists follow specified criteria. They are limited by laws that have not been adopted by them, but, I think, by European institutions.
— No, it was the human rights activists who adopted these criteria. Not the European institutions. They indicated that they would follow certain criteria, but this was accepted by human rights activists from Belarus, Russia, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan. The Socialist camp accepted these criteria. There is a war, sorry, but what criteria can we talk about now? People who oppose the regime are political prisoners and we should talk about it. Otherwise, imagine, they will thoroughly “press” Lukashenka and say: “Release political prisoners”. And only those who were recognized as political prisoners will be liberated. What will we do then? Autukhovich will stay.
— I feel that now there is such a situation that there must be some kind of turning point. Important for Ukraine, and Belarus, and also Russia.
– Moreover, I will say that if we now take this chance, when I say “we”, I mean the people in both Belarus and Ukraine, we will make these countries free, democratic and European.
If we do not take advantage of this chance, it will become an even greater catastrophe, this war will become a pan-European one, if not worldwide. Currently, in my opinion, we are observing a second wave of the liberation of Europe from the post-Soviet, pseudo-communist, dictatorial regime of Putin, Lukashenka and so on. Now it is necessary to complete what Europe and we have not completed since the late 1980s, namely, to ensure the security of the entire continent. Europe will be free only when Belarus is free.
— Will Lukashenka get to the Hague together with Putin?
— We must now establish an international tribunal for criminals. They are not only criminals against humanity, but they are also war criminals. Both Putin and Lukashenka. It is necessary to establish a certain tribunal, as was in the case of Yugoslavia and Rwanda, there are such precedents. This will be an instrument of power for the court in the Hague, so that Lukashenka and Putin get there. We won't move on without sentencing the criminals.
— Don't you think that the Belarusians who remained in Belarus can think differently than we do here? I mean that we are enjoying the free media and all the resources on the Internet, but they are not. Maybe they think that it will be like this forever and perceive this life as it is.
— Everything is available on the Internet, there are VPNs and so on. It's not so complicated to find it. YouTube and even TikTok are very popular as mass media actually. People are watching this, the refrigerator has long defeated the TV. Does anyone watch Belarusian television today? I am not sure, maybe some kinds of masochists. This is due to the fact that what they say on television has nothing to do with reality.
— But does he still have enough vassals?
— No, not enough. In fact, we are in a terrible situation. Arrests happen daily, repressions happen daily, sentences happen daily. More than four thousand people are in prisons. However, this is an indicator of how scared Lukashenka is, he is so scared. He needs victims every day because he doesn't feel safe. That is why Lukashenka has few vassals on whom he can rely. Some adapt to this system and justify themselves by saying that they need to earn money and so on. There were more vassals in 2020 than now. There were those who believed that it was possible to work for Belteleradio, that it was possible to create a business in Belarus, but everyone came out to protest. This is an indicator of what will happen, and how the people actually relate to the dictator.
— How do you feel about the Transitional Cabinet of Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya?
— No way. These are the people who created this regime.
— There were times when you also served the regime.
— You say this, but this is a kind of misunderstanding. I did not serve the regime for a single day, not a single hour.
— You've been a part of the system.
— I did not serve this regime for a single day, not a single hour, but I served Belarus. I had left before Lukashenka seized the power. The people who now call themselves the opposition created this regime, they tortured people, like the investigator of the GUBOPiK, who also declared himself the leader of the opposition. They created blacklists and so on.
This is not the line that I support and I do not see these people as the leaders of Belarus. I see leaders who are in prison. I am talking about Statkevich, Seviarynets. This, you know, is an interesting kind of political defile that they are showing. Here's what they are doing now. Their activities do nothing for Belarus.
— What do you think of Sakhashchyk?
— He is also a member of this team.
— What do you see as the scenarios of changes in Belarus? Will the Kalinouski Regiment play its part?
— Obviously. I believe that the Kalinouski Regiment is a model of the Belarusian army. Because they are nationally conscious people. They have been acting and resisting this dictatorship for a long time, and now also for the freedom of Belarus.
“For our and your freedom!” is what they are doing. The Kalinovites are fighting with arms because this is a necessary measure. It is because we, the Belarusian opposition, have always been using a non-violent resistance approach. Putin and Lukashenka have crossed this line. They started to use weapons. Lukashenka used it against people in 2020, he killed people, and Putin is now using it against the whole people.
— Actually, Lukashenka had been killing people even earlier, before 2020.
— Previously, he, like a criminal, did it secretly so that no one could see, in order to later deny that he had been involved in this in any way. And in 2020 it was open, Lukashenka gave the order to kill. I think that there should be a strong team that would mobilize Belarusians for even greater resistance when the time comes for this. When we see that Ukraine is winning, there will again be a chance to liberate Belarus.
— Don’t you think that when Lukashenka sees that Ukraine is winning, he will run away?
— Where will he run?
— From Belarus.
— I think that nine million Belarusians dream about it.
— But do you see such an option?
— I think it would be good both for him and for us.
— But it’s necessary to return the money that Lukashenka stole.
— Everything here is very finely elaborated. Where this money is, how to obtain it. This is all there, in the world in which you and I live: in Poland, in Western Europe, in the States. There are laws. And according to these laws, by the way, it is important that there be an international tribunal, that there be sentences. Then all property and money will be confiscated.